tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8053456473364009222.post397122489365787695..comments2023-10-08T14:49:05.398+03:00Comments on Explorations: Rav Aharon Lichtenstein, Rav Gustman, and the Legend of the Milkmanari kahnhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07158188626247493567noreply@blogger.comBlogger6125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8053456473364009222.post-43823520368073413592016-02-09T17:21:22.060+02:002016-02-09T17:21:22.060+02:00Isaac Chavel wrote:
Just found your blog on the s...Isaac Chavel wrote:<br /><br />Just found your blog on the story, so I am a bit late to this party.<br />My son Simi told me the story when he returned from the Gush years ago;<br />he knew I would love it as I had learned by Rav Gustman in the Crown heights days. <br />I have known for a very long time that it was apocryphal, but it was great apocrypha <br />as it had captured both personalities so beautifully.<br /><br />But I heard the Sha'are Zedek story from a young man who worked one night <br />with Rav Gustman at the hospital. When Rav Amital made his first trip to the US <br />after the Yom Kippur War, he stayed in Riverdale for a Shabbat, and they put <br />together a Shabbaton for boys who learned in the Gush. One of the fellows stayed <br />with us for Shabbat, and when he returned from Rav Amital's "tisch" Friday night, <br />I mentioned to him, over tea, that I had learned with Rav Gustman, he then told me <br />that he volunteered through the war at Sha'are Zedek (he parents would not let him enlist)<br />and his partner one night was Rav Gustman (to him Rav Gustman was just an older man --- he had no idea<br />who he really was). At about midnight, things quieted down, and Rav Gustman turned him and said, "It's quiet,<br />we ought to sit and learn." The young fellow told me he looked at Rav Gustman as though he was … . Rav<br />Gustman asked him, "Have you learned Kiddushin?" He said, "No." Rav Gustman told him to relax. He taught <br />him the first Mishna and sugya ten times by-heart, with all the Rashi and some of the Tosafot. Then he said a <br />chiddush. The young man concluded, "Then we davened Kvatikin."<br /><br />So this may a story different from the one you mentioned. Sorry, but I completely forgot the young man's name.<br /><br /><br />Best regards, and kol tuv,<br /><br />Isaacari kahnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07158188626247493567noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8053456473364009222.post-60359520269466609272015-05-04T09:47:31.633+03:002015-05-04T09:47:31.633+03:00another writer: Eliahu Misgav
- לפני כמה וכמה שנ...another writer: Eliahu Misgav <br /> - לפני כמה וכמה שנים בהיותי בישיבה כתבתי את הסיפורים בעלון 'שבת בשבתו'. אחד מתלמידי הישיבה סיפר לי את סיפור החלבן. נגשתי לרב אהרן זצ"ל לשאול לנכונות הסיפור לפני פרסומו. הרב אמר לי ש: "אני לא זוכר סיפור כזה, אמנם התנדבתי במלחמה אך לא כחלבן, וגם הרב גוסטמן הכיר אותי טוב טוב עוד מארה"ב - אבל אני לא זוכר..."<br />ari kahnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07158188626247493567noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8053456473364009222.post-89427162552304433152015-05-03T23:11:39.398+03:002015-05-03T23:11:39.398+03:00Yisrael Dubitsky
to me
5 hours agoDetails
Re your ...Yisrael Dubitsky<br />to me<br />5 hours agoDetails<br />Re your correspondent's "memory" of Rav Gustman zt"l and the learned Yemenite -- while such stories may have happened numerous times to numerous individuals, there is (at least) one such story that has been published, ostensibly first hand :<br /><br />ברצוני כאן לדון בעדה יחידה ומיוחדת במינה, בעדה התימנית, ומעשה שהיה כך היה. לפני יותר מארבעים שנה לימדתי במוסד תורני חשוב ובו שמש תימני. יהודי זה גר במרתף וניזון בקב של חרובים מערב שבת לערב שבת. ואף אותו קב לא מספיק לו אלא בצירוף עבודה שנייה במוסד אחר. לא היה סיפק בידו למלא תפקידו כראוי... ביום מן הימים הזמנתי אותו לחדרי והתריתי בו, שאם לא ייטיב את דרכו הנני רואה אותו כמפוטר. לא קבלתי תשובה, ומאותו יום ואילך מילא תפקידו באמונה ובדיוק, אלא הפסיק לדבר אתי, וכשברכתיו לשלום השיב לי בשפה רפה... הזמנתיו שוב ושאלתיו למה הוא רוגז עלי, הרי מלאתי את חובתי כשנזפתי בו. שתק שעה קלה והשיב שאמנם צדקתי בעצם הדבר, אלא שלא נהגתי בו כמדת תלמידי-חכמים, והוסיף: "אצלנו אין נוהגין כן באדם שיודע משנה ורמב"ם על פה". פתחתי ספר משנה תורה שהיה מונח על שולחני, קראתי בו הלכה אחת, והשמש סיים על פה את השאר. לא האמנתי למשמע אזני. שהרי אף בליטא, מקום מרכזי התורה, לא ראיתי שמש שמתנהג כיהודי פשוט בקי במשנה וברמב"ם על פה" <br />(פרופ' שאול ליברמן זצ"ל, בתוך: יהדות תימן; פרקי מחקר ועיון. העורכים: ישראל ישעיהו, יוסף טובי. ירושלים: יד יצחק בן-צבי, תשל"ו, עמ' שמט)ari kahnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07158188626247493567noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8053456473364009222.post-78168706808135946502015-05-03T12:44:27.772+03:002015-05-03T12:44:27.772+03:00another email...
"A few years ago (12 years ...another email...<br /><br />"A few years ago (12 years or so) at a Purim party at his house Rav Aharon Lichtenstein was asked about the validity of a number of different stories.<br />He said that the milk man story with Rav Gustman never happened.<br /> <br />Rav Lichtenstein's daughter, Toni Mittelman, told some fellow talmidim the following story about the Yom Kippur war:<br />Rav Lichtenstein went to the army to volunteer. He was asked what he can do, to which he answered, "I have a doctorate in English literature and I can teach Torah."<br />He was then asked what else he could do that could be of use, and he answered "Home electrical repairs."<br /> <br />Rav Lichtenstein was sent to the Civil Defense Command. When Rav Yehuda Amital heard what Rav Aharon was doing he told the army that Rav Lichtenstein could be 'useful' doing other things. Rav Lichtenstein then went around giving shiurim and chizuk to the soldiers,"<br /> <br />(I heard about Toni's narrative from a fellow talmid at Yeshivat Har Etzion, Yitzchak Bart.)<br /> <br />Sholem Hurwitz<br />ari kahnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07158188626247493567noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8053456473364009222.post-87906552548678296762015-05-01T13:17:59.644+03:002015-05-01T13:17:59.644+03:00Someone who learned with Rav Gustman wrote:
I hea...<br />Someone who learned with Rav Gustman wrote:<br /> I heard this milkman story a few times during the past week and even told ... I don't believe it. However, there was a somewhat similar story told in the yeshiva about Rav Gustman and a Yemenite street cleaner who knew a tremendous amount of Torah, who Rav Gustman engaged in conversation outside the yeshiva shorty after his aliya and then commented upon in the way the legend reports him commenting upon Rav Aharon. While your surmise about the story of Rav Aharon Kotler may also provide a piece of the puzzle, it sounds to me that this story about the unknown learned street cleaner has been spruced up and transferred to Rav Aharon. The fact is that the original story is more edifying, since it refers to a truly anonymous, poor and unrecognized Jew whose Torah knowledge and accomplishments were prodigious. It isn't a story about mistaken identity and Rav Aharon's humility while allowing a laugh at Rav Gutman's naive error, but a true comment on how there is no necessary connection between a person's wealth and social position and his Torah, and that there really have been serious talmidei hakhamim in Jerusalem working at garbage collection. <br /><br /> I don't remember the original story with enough precision to repeat it to you, but could make inquiries if you want me to.<br /><br /> Again thank you for taking upon yourself to stand up for truth and to debunk this apocryphal story, and may we all continue to learn and improve from the Torah and the truly simple and heroic middot, yosher and ideals of moreinu v'rabbenu Harav Aharon zt"l. ari kahnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07158188626247493567noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8053456473364009222.post-25411750617695142072015-05-01T12:09:29.380+03:002015-05-01T12:09:29.380+03:00someone wrote me -with something he heard from R B...someone wrote me -with something he heard from R Benjy Levine on one of his walking tours of Nachlaot.<br />"During the time of the old yishuv, there were two very great talmidei chachamim, Reb Levi Yitchak gazman who supplied gas to the occupants of Jerusalem, and Reb Betzallel Milchiger, who supplied milk. it was said that when the two met in the street, they would inevitably engage each other in learning, and on such days Jerusalemites would have no milk and no gas.<br />When Rav Reuven Bengis arrived in Jerusalem to become Av Beis Din, he was involved in a complex halachic matter which he discussed with his colleagues which had them all stumped. Meanwhile Reb Betzallel arrived with the milk, heard the problem, and answered immediately to the effect that it was a Tosafos somewhere or the like. Rav Reuven was so awed that he wanted to resign from his post as he felt inadequate to be an av beis din of a city where even the milkmen were bekiim beshas. His colleagues on the beis din had to mollify him by assuring him that Reb Betzallel was no ordinary milkman. I think that is the origin of the urban legend. Perhaps it was attributed to Rav Ahron because of his similarly unassuming manner. who knows?" ari kahnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07158188626247493567noreply@blogger.com